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49ersparadise.com FORUM  |  49ers Paradise  |  49ers Paradise - Literally!  |  Topic: John Thomas O'Sullivan 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: John Thomas O'Sullivan  (Read 17344 times)
STLNiner
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #780 on: September 29, 2008, 03:32:49 PM »
Yeah, this wasn't a good game by JT. But he got no help from the OL, and no help at all from his defense. The O-line let the defense batter him all day, and the defense couldn't stop the Saints, meaning JT had to throw all second half. They pinned their ears back and got after him pretty good. I knew one of these games was coming, now hopefully the coaching staff can regroup and not make this a permanent slide. They play several good teams in a row and need to put this one behind them quickly.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #781 on: September 30, 2008, 05:25:32 PM »
What are the chances JTO survives the games with Patriots, Eagles and Giants, if the line does not improve considerably the pass protection?
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #782 on: September 30, 2008, 07:30:39 PM »
From Matt Barrows...

September 30, 2008
49ers quarterly report
No one will be yelling, Sell! Sell! Sell! after looking at the 49ers' quarterly report, but it's not exactly a bull market either. The 49ers are a .500 ball club, which is precisely where most people would have put them after games against Arizona, Seattle, Detroit and New Orleans. They're certainly better than last year's team (also 2-2 after four games) but not ready to take on any elite teams either as shown by their disappointing performance in New Orleans. Here's how I see the team with three-fourths of the season still to go.

Offense. This is a Mike Martz offense, no doubt about it. The 49ers are eons ahead of where they were last year in everything from creativity to giving opposing defenses something to worry about. They rank 12th - TWELTH! - in total offense and are averaging 334 yards a game, which was unheard of last year. Three different receivers have had big games for the 49ers and Frank Gore has far more running room than he did last season. But it's not all good. Martz is living up to his reputation for exposing quarterbacks. The 49ers lead the league with 19 sacks allowed and have been particularly bad in that category on the road. Mike Nolan joked that he didn't mind a lot of sacks as long as they were "gentle" ones. The sacks J.T. O'Sullivan absorbed in New Orleans were not gentle and you wonder if he can make it through a season being flung to ground nearly five times a game. In fact, the loss to New Orleans looked eerily similar to how Lions games played out over the last two seasons - and that's not a good thing. Still, the bottom line is that the 49ers are moving the ball, and barring one game where they had trouble finding the end zone, appear able to keep pace with anyone. Grade: B+

Standouts: Frank Gore, Eric Heitmann, J.T. O'Sullivan
Need to see more: Vernon Davis, Jonas Jennings
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #783 on: September 30, 2008, 07:48:04 PM »
It's not just the line imo. It appears he's holding onto the ball too long and in all likelihood, the TE's, and WR's aren't making the proper reads and adjustments because if they are making the correct reads, they certainly aren't making the adjustment.

It will take time for them to come together, I just hope JT can survive the onslaught he's sure to encounter.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #784 on: September 30, 2008, 07:58:52 PM »
He is holding onto the ball too long on some plays ,trying to make something happen when the play breaks down. He has passed for TD's a few times this year holding the ball too long,so it's not all bad and you can understand why he sometimes continues to do it,it has worked very well several times. And sometimes it goes against him ,like when he fumbled this week and it also was his fault on a few of the sacks because he didn't unload the ball BUT only a small minority of the sacks were because of that.

He will learn or he will get knocked out of a game . I think he will learn . But remember ,in the Martz system the QB has always had to take a beating. So,although I expect him to get better at getting the ball out (something he usually does as well as any QB in the League) I also recognize that he will be getting sacked and that's not necessarily his fault most of the time,that's just the name of the game baby ! He is tough and he is still learning and hopefully getting better and wiser.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #785 on: October 01, 2008, 12:03:21 AM »
Or he'll wind up on IR, and his learning is over.

He needs more time to develop and yes for plays to develop but if it's not there that alarm has got to sound off in his head and he's got to learn to throw it away and live to play another down.

Just because Martz's system suggests in some twisted way that QB's will accumulate and absorb more that their fair share of blasting, shouldn't make it something that a smart QB can't learn to play out of.

Granted, there are times when he will and maybe should take that extra second or two but all it will take is one too many of those and that's the end.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #786 on: October 01, 2008, 12:58:39 AM »
So maybe JT held on the ball too long when all receivers were covered. Other times he stared one receiver down and didn't look of the safety and throw a pick. It was only his fourth career start. Sure, Martz isn't infallible and could run more draws/counters and misdirection’s to gore and we could have used more screen passing. That still doesn’t change the fact that our Oline was being thrown in the air like a bunch of rag dolls during the game. The Oline needs to block better first of all. Martz has institutes three play calling levels of schemes depending on how the oline is performing against four or five rushers. Our Oline has to get their Shiite together in any event because even if Joe were playing that game we would be livid at Barton, Sopola, and all the others for their crap performance on Sunday.

Nolan or whoever is making the d calls needs to realize that we don't have a fricking Bob Sanders at FS and Mike Lewis is a slightly better coverage SS than Roy Williams. Our team was drafted to play an aggressive blitzing defense because our CBS are grade A in man coverage but our safeties or inexperienced or poor in 2 deep zone coverage so why not simplify things and bring out our beastly pass rushers and set them loss. The 2-deep nickel defense isn't working because!) We have no pressure 2) Our CBs are good in man but you can only cover someone for so many seconds in man) and our safeties lack experience and playmaking ability to execute deep drop coverage.

We need a makeover of our defensive strategy that builds upon the strength of a high motor DLine, a good pass rushing and Tackling core, two great  man to man cover corners, And one SS who is s step above Roy Williams in pass protection but isn't great in 2 deep zones. And Roman or a rookie who are prone to coverage lapses when not one on one or just single 1 deep drop zone coverage.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #787 on: October 01, 2008, 11:22:04 AM »
HB: interesting points.

I particularly agree with the "4th career start." If JT was our 3rd rd pick 2 years ago, most fans would be thrilled with his performance, call his INTs "something he can learn from."  If Smith had this kind of year, he'd be headed for a career year, and Smith supporters would be crowing about his sudden "development" and that he was taking the next step.

At times, JT stares. He holds the ball too long. Won't run soon enough. Has some bad decisions. Not bad for a guy making his 4th start.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #788 on: October 01, 2008, 11:29:04 AM »
He hasn't had many starts, but he has been around a long time, and needs to learn to throw the ball away sometimes.  He has played well overall, but that is one thing that he needs to improve for both his health and the protection of the ball.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #789 on: October 01, 2008, 11:40:49 AM »
It may have only been his 4th start but, like wcg said, he has been in the league for 8 years.  He also has two years of starting experience in NFLE.  He should know by this point that if you hold the ball for 5 seconds, you are going to be sacked.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #790 on: October 01, 2008, 12:47:35 PM »
Apparently, it takes longer than 5 seconds to get sacked in NFLE.  He more used to running around with a red or black shirt on.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #791 on: October 01, 2008, 01:26:01 PM »
The play he fumbled on is being reported as a play he held the ball for 6 seconds. I bet he held the ball for around 6 seconds on the TD pass to Bruce. The only difference between the two is that he didn't feel the pass rusher coming from behind on the fumble play and of course a huge difference is that one led to a turnover and the other led to a TD. (and therefore one gets huge criticism and the other is forgotten because it led to a score).
I guess if he is going to have the fight and never give up attitude coached out of him and if he is going to be told to unload the ball within a strict time frame (4 seconds?) then we might not see as many fumbles or sacks but we also might not see some of those big plays and even TD's that result from JT's great talent to keep plays alive . 
I would like to see JT adjust his game slightly ,not a drastic change that will take away some of the things that make him special. Just tweak the problem areas that everyone agrees he has.(he has only started 4 games in the NFL,he has a long time ahead of learning  and refining his game )..
.
Quote from: J on October 01, 2008, 11:22:04 AM


At times, JT stares. He holds the ball too long. Won't run soon enough. Has some bad decisions. Not bad for a guy making his 4th start.

Exactly ! J nails it again !
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #792 on: October 02, 2008, 06:40:12 AM »
Harv and wcg:
So, when a guy has been a backup in teh NFL for 6 years, and has thrown a dozen actual NFL passes during that span, he should be able to step in and behave like a vet?  I don't buy that at all. He should be better than a rookie and he is. He shouldn't be playing as though he's started dozens of games b/c he hasn't.

Smoke:
That would be a big change from teh "Bull's-eye" jersey he currently wears. LOL
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #793 on: October 02, 2008, 07:04:09 AM »
I'm not saying he should be playing like a seasoned veteran but he should know that when you hold the ball that long you are going to get sacked.  He has absolutely zero pocket presence as well.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #794 on: October 02, 2008, 08:22:05 AM »
"Zero pocket presence?"  Give me a break.  You want to see zero pocket presence, hook up your video recorder and watch Alex.  Unfortunately, we don't have a receiver with breakaway speed.  BJ was troubled by a pulled hammy and it is a fact that our receivers were very well covered.  If J.T. throws the ball into coverage, he gets criticized.  If he intelligently holds on to it, he gets criticized.  It's time the newer Niner fans took a lesson from the older ones who know how to be positive and how to win.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #795 on: October 02, 2008, 08:51:54 AM »
Harv:
Quote
I'm not saying he should be playing like a seasoned veteran but he should know that when you hold the ball that long you are going to get sacked.


It took Warner and Bulger years of starting to learn that.

Quote
He has absolutely zero pocket presence as well.

That's about as wrong as you can get.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #796 on: October 02, 2008, 10:12:45 AM »
I don't see anyone saying its time to give up on JTO or denying the good things he does, so I don't understand why its so hard for some of you to accept criticism for the guy without making excuses (I hope that sounds familiar).

This is still the 49ers and all the "excuses" that applied to Alex are suddenly recognized as valid when applied to JTO - Poor line, WR talent, etc.  The guy is a promising QB that is making mistakes.  Why is that so hard to accept?  You ppl act like I'm insulting your Grandma when I say JTO makes a mistake.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #797 on: October 02, 2008, 10:17:00 AM »
Quote from: J on October 02, 2008, 06:40:12 AM
Harv and wcg:
So, when a guy has been a backup in teh NFL for 6 years, and has thrown a dozen actual NFL passes during that span, he should be able to step in and behave like a vet?  I don't buy that at all. He should be better than a rookie and he is. He shouldn't be playing as though he's started dozens of games b/c he hasn't.

Smoke:
That would be a big change from teh "Bull's-eye" jersey he currently wears. LOL


I think he's played well.  I also think with the amount of time he's been in the league and the fact he's two years in with Martz, he should have a better understanding that you can't win on every play.  He has to develop that clock and peripheral vision a good QB needs to avoid the TO's he's giving up, and the hits he's taking.  It's really the only true flaw I've seen in his game, so he is playing pretty well overall.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #798 on: October 02, 2008, 10:23:39 AM »
If you guys think JTO has pocket presence you are crazy.  On multiple occasions this season he has not even noticed a defender running straight at him let alone "felt" one coming up behind him.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #799 on: October 02, 2008, 11:03:16 AM »
Harv,

You have obviously never played quarterback.  How naive.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #800 on: October 02, 2008, 11:10:23 AM »
You're right, Harv, and it happens to a lot of good QBs on a regular basis.

On the other hand, JTO has also made great plays while escaping heavy pressure. Running when it was needed, moving up in the pocket, leaving the pocket and creating something in the open etc. etc. There are lots of examples of that in his first four games. But you don't remember those plays I guess?

Quote from: KS_Niner on October 02, 2008, 10:12:45 AM
I don't see anyone saying its time to give up on JTO or denying the good things he does, so I don't understand why its so hard for some of you to accept criticism for the guy without making excuses (I hope that sounds familiar).

This is still the 49ers and all the "excuses" that applied to Alex are suddenly recognized as valid when applied to JTO - Poor line, WR talent, etc. The guy is a promising QB that is making mistakes. Why is that so hard to accept? You ppl act like I'm insulting your Grandma when I say JTO makes a mistake.

I'm not sure it's the same KS. Even MJ has admitted that JTO made some bad plays and MJ is the biggest JTO fan in here I think. I, for one, called for JTO to be pulled out in the second half and I'm also one of the sinister JTO backers! It's just that Harvs opinions of JTO are really out there....

 
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #801 on: October 02, 2008, 11:20:10 AM »
J.T. [O’Sullivan] had his worst game. Was that a combination of everybody or maybe his inexperience starting to show?

http://www.49ers.com/pressbox/news_detail.php?PRKey=4699&section=PR%20News
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #802 on: October 02, 2008, 11:20:56 AM »
hojer - I consider myself a JTO backer at this point, too (there's nothing "sinister" about that).  The difference between myself and some others in here is that I can accept that the guy is making mistakes without giving excuses about how many games he's played or questioning whether this INT was a tipped ball or whether BJ possibly ran the wrong route, etc.

JTO is still easily the best QB we've had for a while.  He doesn't have to perfect and he's not.  He does make bad decisions at times and seems to let those bad decisions linger a little too long.  He also holds onto ball too long.  These are problems, but ones that can be overcome.  Nobody is saying he's a bad QB, so I don't understand the need to list excuses for every mistake he makes.  Nobody is attacking JTO the way we attacked Alex - so you are right its not the same, but there are obviously some in here that think it is.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #803 on: October 02, 2008, 11:51:07 AM »
KS and Harv:
Some criticism of JT is indisputable. He has held the ball too long. Made some bad decisions. And didn't take off running quickly enough. I don't think those things can be argued by anyone--they're facts.

However, a comment that JT has zero pocket presence is crazy and when compared with other Qbs, practically insupportable. I've seen zero pocket presence (Henson and Carmazzi being the worst 2 i've ever seen), and that is not JT. Has he taken a few sacks where he didn't "feel" the rush coming--so has Brady, Warner, Romo and Kitna, all of whom have taken highlight reel unprepared sacks, not from the backside, but the front.  Throw enough passes and it's gonna happen.

MJ:
Your condescending tone is getting old.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #804 on: October 02, 2008, 11:56:01 AM »
 
Quote from: mountainjack on October 02, 2008, 11:03:16 AM
Harv,

You have obviously never played quarterback.  How naive.

I have played a little organized QB but I don't think little league, middle school, and gym class football are very comparable to the NFL.  

Quote
You're right, Harv, and it happens to a lot of good QBs on a regular basis.

On the other hand, JTO has also made great plays while escaping heavy pressure. Running when it was needed, moving up in the pocket, leaving the pocket and creating something in the open etc. etc. There are lots of examples of that in his first four games. But you don't remember those plays I guess?

There is a difference between pocket presence and escaping pressure. JTO is great at escaping pressure, when he sees it coming.  Maybe I exaggerated when I said JTO had "zero" pocket presence, or maybe I didn't, but he certainly doesn't have good pocket presence.  You guys act like I have never even complimented JTO before.  JTO is the best quarterback we have had since Garcia left but that doesn't make him perfect.  He has his flaws and all I am doing is pointing them out.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #805 on: October 02, 2008, 01:18:19 PM »
From Matt Barrows...Quotes from Belicheck and Staley...

The coach of Sunday's opponent, however, downplayed the sack total, arguing that the 49ers' potential for big plays makes up for the losses they incur when sacked.

"They've gotten hit a couple of times, but they've hit the defense plenty, too," New England coach Bill Belichick said. "Again, it's a give-and-take thing."

The 49ers are tied with San Diego with 16 pass plays of 20 yards or more, ranking them third in that category....

...Left tackle Joe Staley said the crux of the matter is that he and his linemates must do better at holding their blocks when O'Sullivan takes a seven-step drop.

"Every time we get a 20-yard play, it's because we've gotten good protection and he's been able to stay in the pocket," Staley said. " … But it takes a lot for those plays to develop, and we have to do a better job of finishing (our blocks) on those seven-step drops and giving him all the time he needs."
-------------------------

And Harv, I think JT has very good pocket presence. He just needs to learn better when to run and when to hold the ball and when to get rid of the ball. JT has very very good escapability and that is due to his very good pocket presence.
If you think a QB doesn't have good pocket presence because he gets hit from behind every once in a while without seeing or knowing the guy was there then I guess you think Joe Montana or any of the greats had zero pocket presence. They all got hit from behind and were surprised when it happend,several times. In the Martz system,where the QB is SUPPOSED to hold the ball longer than most systems (on some plays) it will happen even more.
As Belicheck says in the M.B. article...

"The coach of Sunday's opponent, however, downplayed the sack total, arguing that the 49ers' potential for big plays makes up for the losses they incur when sacked.

"They've gotten hit a couple of times, but they've hit the defense plenty, too," New England coach Bill Belichick said. "Again, it's a give-and-take thing."

The 49ers are tied with San Diego with 16 pass plays of 20 yards or more, ranking them third in that category.

AND if you didn't read it above then here is Staley's point of view on the issue ...

"Left tackle Joe Staley said the crux of the matter is that he and his linemates must do better at holding their blocks when O'Sullivan takes a seven-step drop.

"Every time we get a 20-yard play, it's because we've gotten good protection and he's been able to stay in the pocket," Staley said. " … But it takes a lot for those plays to develop, and we have to do a better job of finishing (our blocks) on those seven-step drops and giving him all the time he needs."
------------------

JT has really good pocket presence ! Hopefully it will get even better as he learns from his mistakes .
( see KS, I recognize that JT makes mistakes (have never said he did not) and hopefully he will continue to fight through his inexperience and learn as he goes. As you say,he is already better than what we have had for years).
But at this stage of things we really don't even know if JT is going to go on and become great or if he is going to quickly go down the tubes and fade away. Probably somewhere in between ,I hope somewhere more near the great side of the scale,but who knows at this early date in JT's career.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #806 on: October 02, 2008, 01:19:05 PM »
He does hold the ball to long at times & with solid coaching he can over come that.   I am just happy we appear to have a qb that might have a future with us.  He has shown me plenty to be excited about including his accuracy, quick release, scrambling ability.  I refuse to be overly critical of him only 4 games into the season.   I hope the OL steps up there game as JTO continues to find his grove with his new teammates.  I think he is going to be just fine.  Alex who? Wink
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #807 on: October 02, 2008, 01:40:00 PM »
Quote from: D-roc on October 02, 2008, 01:19:05 PM
He does hold the ball to long at times & with solid coaching he can over come that.

I agree that he does ,some times,hold the ball too long,as ALL QB's do.
I just wonder if some of the fans don't understand that in the Martz system he is asked to hold onto the ball longer on several plays than QB's in other systems? When he is criticized for holding the ball too long did the one doing the criticism bother to study that particular play to see if he was just running the play pretty much as it was supposed to be run BUT the O line didn't do their job? Of course he has held the ball too long on a couple of scrambles ,where he should have been more alert to trouble (being out of the protection of the pocket) BUT even then he has made several great plays,some even for TD's ,when he held the ball too long while scrambling.
As Belecheck says,you take the good with the bad (and there has been plenty of good in those situations). As I said ,sometimes when you go bear hunting you get the bear and sometimes he gets you !
JT will hopefully learn to adjust his game a bit to improve on those few times when he holds the ball too long (and bad things happen) . BUT we don't want him to adjust that part of his game so much that he takes away his keep the play alive attitude. Adjust his game a little here and there but don't totally kill the attitude that makes him special.
.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #808 on: October 02, 2008, 01:51:08 PM »
"see KS, I recognize that JT makes mistakes"

Yes, TIM, you do.  Everyone does.  But then you turnaround and list a myriad of reasons either justifying those mistakes or explaining why we shouldn't hold him accountable for them (inexperience, Martz's system, touchdown passes where he held the ball too long, the OL not blocking well enough, etc, etc, etc, etc).

What I'm saying is that we should stop making excuses for the guy.  He's not doing somethings well and all the circumstances in the world can't excuse that.  Nobody is saying he can't get better or he's not a good QB, so we don't need the excuses at this point.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #809 on: October 02, 2008, 02:02:26 PM »
Who exactly is being "overly critical" of JTO?  No one here...at least not anymore.  He's been great, really good for the most part.  That isn't to say he can't be better....he can!

As I stated in my post last Saturday before the loss to the Saints I think he tends to hold the ball too long.  Witness the fumble play where he had the ball for 6 seconds, waiting, waiting...beating that dead play into submission until it cost us a turnover. 

Now what do you know....this week practically every newspaper in the area has carried an article or blog post about how JTO holds the ball too long (hey Burrows/Maiocco, where's my royalty?).  It's just plain fact that he does try to keep dead play alive too long sometimes. 

YES I get that it's who he is: Mr. "Never give up".  I like that BUT it's also important to play SMART and not just HARD.  I simply think he can be smarter about knowing when a play is dead and just getting rid of the ball.  The key is recognizing those plays where the WR's are helping by coming back to the ball on broken plays and when they're all covered and doing so is likely to create a turnover.  This IS possible you know....

Overall so far this season I'd give JTO a B+ grade, VERY GOOD and much better than anything Smith ever showed (he's probably C- or D range on his career thus far).  Also as one of JTO's earliest advocates I immediately saw his potential and have stated as much in this thread:  Accurate, Super-Quick release, good arm strength, decent mobility...in other words an ideal QB for Martz.

Now exactly WHAT is SO critical about that or anything posted here?

Sheesh it seems like a guy just can't win 'round here.  At first I'm JTO's biggest advocate around here and the "Smith Colored Lenses" crowd jumps on me 'cause I'm not "loyal" to Smith who's "sacrificed so much" for the 9ers by walking away w/ his $50Mil (how many $/TD does that work out to?).  NEXT I'm told I'm "overly critical" of the guy who's bringing the franchise back to respectability practically singlehandedly.  Yes he has brought us back BUT nobody's perfect and yet perfection is what we seek...what's wrong with that?  Let's call it "constructive criticism" and move on...JTO's good, not great...at least not yet BUT at least he's got the potential to be great and I sure hope he survives in the Martz offense long enough to do so.
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