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49ersparadise.com FORUM  |  49ers Paradise  |  49ers Paradise - Literally!  |  Topic: John Thomas O'Sullivan 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: John Thomas O'Sullivan  (Read 17316 times)
twinspapa
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #870 on: October 17, 2008, 11:23:27 PM »
TIM are you quoting articles from other sites? Could you reduce this in the future and provide a link instead? Thanks.

And J, I like JTO, I think the kid could become a good player in the league, I just don't like how we're not giving him the opportunity to BEST succeed. Martz is throwing him AND the rest of the offense to the wolves and hopes they can survive and I don't agree with that strategy.

What makes matters worse imo is that because this entire offense is still really new to all of the players they're not all on the same page and I hope that they get there soon because I'd be furious if Gore or JTO or one of our other key players gets injured because of how aggressive Martz can be on offense.

I'm old school I suppose. I don't recall Walsh just throwing most of the players to the wolves the way Martz seems to. Sure he got Rice on the field early on and he struggled until his light went on but we really got lucky there. The way defenses are dialing up blitz's against our offense I dread what may happen to JTO.

I'd really like to see him design plays that allowed for maximum chance of success along with protection of the QB. I just don't think Air Coryell is that kind of system. It seems to be predicated on not only an intelligent and tough QB, but a savvy experienced QB and supporting cast.

You know, at some point these losses will affect them because they know how close they really have been in these games. They should realize they have been good enough to win offensively.

I just don't want to see our guys get injured more than anything else.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #871 on: October 19, 2008, 11:45:39 AM »
It is half time of the Giants game and what do you know,after a slow start the defense is actually playing defense and rather aggressively !
The O line is actually blocking for JT after a slow start and 2 early sacks!
Too bad that even though JT is playing great he has already had 2 of those plays that make your jaw drop as you ask yourself what the heck was he thinking (exactly what Martz is saying to him as he comes off the field).

I think I may finally have an answer to why he throws those int's that have us all scratching our heads...It looks to me that he just focuses in on the receiver and the defender or defenders that are covering the receiver BUT does not also at the same time focus in on the zone just underneath where the receiver and defender are running. He seems to be ONLY focused on the one zone and not the underneath zone and he completely does not see the underneath guy and throws it for what would be a completion IF the underneath guy was not there to easily intercept. It is really stupid of JT and really not excusable BUT at least I see some hope because IF this is his consistant Achilles heel then at least they have something that can be worked on and fixed. The rest of his game seems fine and even better than fine.(Except that when he makes one of his boneheaded plays or when he misses a pass ,like the one to Bruce that might have been a TD,he does seem to get down on himself and lose concentration for a while ).
Oh well,the 2nd half is starting. The game should be tied or even better and I really can't blame the defense or the O line this time.It is mostly on JT that we are not ties or even ahead. He has done some wonderful things and some crazy things . If he can fix the things that are crazy he will be a really good QB,if not then he will be one of those guys who play just well enough to give you hope and then break your heart. Only his 7th game so who knows?
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #872 on: October 19, 2008, 11:58:41 AM »
JT is playing great? are we watching the same game? Also where is this "it" at TIM I still havent seen it. 7th game or not he's been in the league for 6 years, he's making dumb throws right to the defender. no complex scheme or anything. just dumb throws.

Say what you want, i dont remember smith making as many bad throws (not including his rookie year) that JT has thrown all season
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #873 on: October 19, 2008, 12:23:21 PM »
Sorry TIM, but like CC I cannot see what you're referring to. This is playing great? Man, if that is true, then our expectations have really fallen.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #874 on: October 19, 2008, 01:12:53 PM »
the wheels are falling off the bandwagon.
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hojer49
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #875 on: October 19, 2008, 02:52:30 PM »
Quote from: cervant on October 19, 2008, 12:23:21 PM
Sorry TIM, but like CC I cannot see what you're referring to. This is playing great? Man, if that is true, then our expectations have really fallen.

Watch the game again then. For every bad or stupid play JTO makes he makes a really good one. He's under constant pressure but still throws for 250 yds. against the Giants. So there are some positive plays as well. Is that good enough for an NFL QB? Obviously not. It's unacceptable. Today and against the Eagles he is the reason we're loosing but he is also the reason we're in the game today.

Don't be so one-eyed guys!
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commoncents
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #876 on: October 19, 2008, 03:06:36 PM »
Quote from: hojer49 on October 19, 2008, 02:52:30 PM
Quote from: cervant on October 19, 2008, 12:23:21 PM
Sorry TIM, but like CC I cannot see what you're referring to. This is playing great? Man, if that is true, then our expectations have really fallen.

Watch the game again then. For every bad or stupid play JTO makes he makes a really good one. He's under constant pressure but still throws for 250 yds. against the Giants. So there are some positive plays as well. Is that good enough for an NFL QB? Obviously not. It's unacceptable. Today and against the Eagles he is the reason we're loosing but he is also the reason we're in the game today.

Don't be so one-eyed guys!

LOL One eyed?! Ok so JTO had 5(?) credited TO's today correct. you name me 5 positive plays that he did that could have changed the completion of the game like his TO's did

Don't worry, i'll wait...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 03:15:45 PM by commoncents » Logged
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #877 on: October 19, 2008, 04:14:34 PM »
I think, bottom line, that what you see with JT is what you've got. He's a journeyman, plain & simple. He's not a rookie simply because he didn't get much playing time over the previous 6 years.

If he's the best QB we got on the team, then we still have a ways to go before we can be considered a contender. Now, if we had a touted rookie QB who needed some seasoning, then having a JT as the starting QB for a year is okay. I have no problem with JT as a #2 guy off the bench.

I think that if you expect him to grow into something special, then you're headed for disappointment.  I *wish* it were true 'cos we could sure use it, but I honestly don't think he'll ever be significantly better than he is right now.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #878 on: October 19, 2008, 06:04:55 PM »
I would be willing to give JTO another game before branding him a total failure. Today he played against one of the best defenses in the league and even a true champion like Gore struggled to gain yardage today. Our O line was clearly outplayed every single play and I do not think many other QB's would have done much better.

We waited 3 seasons for Smith...can we wait at least 1/2 season for JTO?
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #879 on: October 20, 2008, 12:57:30 AM »
Quote from: commoncents on October 19, 2008, 03:06:36 PM

LOL One eyed?! Ok so JTO had 5(?) credited TO's today correct. you name me 5 positive plays that he did that could have changed the completion of the game like his TO's did

Don't worry, i'll wait...
While I've been on the Dise you've always been bending over backwards trying to find explanations for you-know-who and with JTO it seems to me that you (and plenty of others) have just been waiting for him to fail so you can jump on him without mercy.

A please stop making me into something I'm not. I've been critizing JTO too. I just acknowledge his good sides as well. It's probably a fantasy, but eleminate the mistakes and JTO is a heck of a QB.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #880 on: October 20, 2008, 03:41:18 AM »
Quote from: hojer49 on October 20, 2008, 12:57:30 AM
Quote from: commoncents on October 19, 2008, 03:06:36 PM

LOL One eyed?! Ok so JTO had 5(?) credited TO's today correct. you name me 5 positive plays that he did that could have changed the completion of the game like his TO's did

Don't worry, i'll wait...
While I've been on the Dise you've always been bending over backwards trying to find explanations for you-know-who and with JTO it seems to me that you (and plenty of others) have just been waiting for him to fail so you can jump on him without mercy.

A please stop making me into something I'm not. I've been critizing JTO too. I just acknowledge his good sides as well. It's probably a fantasy, but eleminate the mistakes and JTO is a heck of a QB.

I love the way you couldn't answer the question and ignored it all together. I've come to expect that. Truth hurts huh? Wink Show me where I've "waited" for JT to fail. You cant, cause I havent. Go back and look at my post, I've supported JT and still do as long as he's our QB. I've always said I'm no "Pro" anyone one, but I know when someone has been treated unfairly.

As far as JT goes, I'm just not a "he's a great QB" or "he has the 'IT' factor" after 6 games this season like you and a few others are. I'm a wait and see type of person and right now, I'm basing what I see on all the games he's played and not the games vs Det and Seattle like you seem to be.

I'm not making you into anything, you are doing that yourself by saying people are being one-eyed.  I just asked a simple question based off your last post. I wasnt "attacking" you, I just want you to elaborate on your post. So like I said: JTO had 2 INT's and 3 FUMBLE's, that's 5 plays that help determine this game. What 5 plays did he do postively?
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #881 on: October 20, 2008, 04:58:51 AM »
Just to be clear, I’m not for or against either QB.  I support the San Francisco 49ers, no matter who is playing for them at any given moment.  I’m posting this in both threads if that’s okay?

Alex Smith started 7 games in his first season.  JTO has just started his first 7 games.  There’s lots of thoughts/feelings/opinions flying around in the threads about each guy, so I thought it might be time to for some cold hard dispassionate statistics to be brought to everyone’s attention.  Looking these up, I was surprised just how similar they were in certain areas:

Alex Smith

7 starts, 78 of 154 for 841 yards.  1 TD.  11 Int.
Sacked 29 times for -185 yards.
Rushed 29 times for 100 yards.  11 fumbles.  3 lost.


JT O’Sullivan

7 starts, 115 of 198 for 1,547 yards.  8 TD.  10 Int.
Sacked 29 times for -168 yards.
Rushed 29 times for 146 yards.  9 fumbles, 5 lost.


Bearing in mind that they played in completely different offensive systems (McCarthy vs Martz), surrounded by different players of different quality, my personal opinion is that neither can be said to be particularly “better” than the other…

I also think that this time next year we won’t be talking about either of them as the 49ers will have a new QB and a new HC.


*All stats taken from NFL.com   It’s a strange co-incidence that they were sacked and rushed the same number of times in their first 7 games!!
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #882 on: October 20, 2008, 06:28:14 AM »
there is no way u can compare Smith who was a rookie fresh out of college to a player who, just because he is starting for the first time in his career, has been in the league for 6 years
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #883 on: October 20, 2008, 07:21:59 AM »
Nola:
Smith needed more time to get his feet wet with real competition. JT had that when he stepped on the field here. BUT, we can't write off a QB after 7 games. It's his bad decisions that drag his play down. That's been the case since the first week and it's still going on. Eventually, the player has to be held responsible for not fixing such repeat problems.



twins:

Well, before the Giants game I said: "JT's play has steadily gone down over the last few games. The Giant game may be the bottom." Dang, I was right again (that is SO tank-ish, LOL).

I think JT will be given the 1st half of the Hawk game to see if he can calm down. If he plays like crap again, I think we'll be seeing a change. According to Bee-rows, the chances of going to Hill are very slim b/c Martz has paid little attention to Hill since the season started. Than again, a nice mid-season coaching change could always shake things up.

It's pretty clear that Martz's offense works, but like you indicated, the players may not be ready for all of it. While the offense doesn't look confused, the QB does look frazzled, kind of beat down. All alone on the sideline too, with very few teammates patting him on the helmet or the pads.

It'll be interesting to see how JT reacts in the Hawk game. They Seahawks are in free-fall and if he can't play well against them, the team may have no choice but to change QBs for fear of losing the team.

I'm a JT supporter. I hope he does well. We'll need a QB in the draft/FA no matter what, so for JT, It's clearly a wait-and-see approach on the future. It's been handed to him. If he drops it, he drops it. At this point, I think he is the only 1 that can fix his problems.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #884 on: October 20, 2008, 08:14:59 AM »
JT played horribly, no question. But where do we turn? Hill just isn't going to be able to run this offense. He's just not a good fit and never was when they hired Martz. IMO, Hill would not have even made the roster had they not just signed him long-term. Martz knows he can't play his offense, and that's why he's ignored him. No, JT is all that we've got, as long as Martz is the OC.

I will not defend JT. But the line play was awful, in both pass protection and run blocking. JT or any other QB is doomed if the star RB averages 1 yard per carry. And especially in that second half, the Giants were getting a running start every play in getting into the backfield. Sure JT fumbled, but a couple of those were swatted out before he even got set up. Every offensive lineman should have to give up his game check after that one.

Finally, drops (Morgan, Vernon, etc.) and WRs not paying attention also played a part. I know everyone is saying JT threw both interceptions in the first half right to the other team. Yes, but the first one was Josh Morgan's fault. Go back and watch the tape of the game right after that play. Did you see Martz? He was yelling, but it wasn't at JT. Aikman had that wrong. No, read Martz's lips. He is yelling at Josh Morgan because there was a blitz and Morgan should have seen it and cut his route off. JT threw that ball right where it was supposed to be in that situation. That is a Martz staple when combatting a blitz. Morgan just wasn't paying attention.

But none of that excuses JT's play and defeatist attitude on the sideline. That second INT was the worst, given that Gore was wide open and would have probably walked into the endzone. That made no sense, and an NFL QB shouldn't make that mistake. That was Joey Harrington / David Carr bad, maybe worse. And in the second half, get rid of the damn ball!!! Quit holding it so long. And please, you should know by now that you don't have 8 seconds back there, so secure the thing if you're going to hold onto it.

Just pathetic all around. And when the team sucks all around, I wonder who should take the blame?
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #885 on: October 20, 2008, 08:24:13 AM »
I don't think there is any good reason to say that the Martz offense works. That Superbowl was a long time ago, he had a GREAT team, and since, all the lions but his QBs and WRs are glad he's gone. His offense works when everyone is perfect. It's a shame that most NFL games don't work like that. Plays get broken, you have to improvise, and while JTO has done that pretty well (he's also second in number of passes over 20 yards) when he's on the run, he blows it in the 4th almost every game. Especially when the game is close. He's had 49 attempts in the 4th quarter of games that the niners were within 7. JTO has completed less than 50% of his passes, thrown 2TDs to 4INTS.  The Closer the game, the worse he gets. He does not have "it" It requires performing in the second half of games. If you're interested, I did look up A. Smiths stats. In 2006, his healthy, full season, he threw five TDs and six ints in the fourth within 7 for a QB rating of 55.2. BUT, Smith in the 3rd has a 100.8 rating, 6-3 TD to INT and 68 percent passing.

JTO does not come within 40 points of that at any point in the second half. If you want to dig deeper, the more passes JTO throws, the less accurate he gets, the more INTs he gets. This was not true of A. Smith. His Accuracy always remains above 55, with a noticeable spike in the attempt 11-30. He gets warm, and gets better. JTO gets tired and nervous. You can't teach endurance, and if JTO is getting tired now, he's not going to get less tired as the season wears on.

JTO cannot be fixed. He doesn't have "it"

The Thing about Smith was that his mistakes were exactly that, mistakes, not performing especially bad in the 4th, or having worse numbers as the game wore on. When he wasn't sure, he made mistakes.

JTO is not cut out for 4 quarters, and he can't handle pressure. You can't teach those things. Once and for all, JTO does NOT have IT.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #886 on: October 20, 2008, 08:29:56 AM »
DC, JT may well not have "it," but the rest of the team has collapsed in the 4th quarters as well. The line can't open a hole. Morgan drops a key pass. The line allows pass rushers to come through like the turnstiles of the NY subway system. JT has sucked, you're absolutely right, in the 4th quarters of tight games. And so has every other player on the offensive side of the ball.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #887 on: October 20, 2008, 08:50:37 AM »
yes JT is def. not solely to blame but being the QB the most of blame falls on him. Which is how it is at the QB spot
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #888 on: October 20, 2008, 10:24:15 AM »
right, 15 of our 18 turnovers came from JTO.  I agree that everyone has sucked, I agree that our O-line has sucked, I'm just saying that what people saw in JTO in the preseason was wishful thinking, that we have no evidence to think he'll turn it around, he hung his head and sat alone and just about pouted when things were going bad. I don't think he's good for the team.  Interesting to note though, I'm not sure that the team sucking isn't because of this "system"

Gore has a total of 19 carries in the 4th quarter this season. Only 12 when we are within seven. Okay, so the game is close, within one score, not a position where passing is necessarily required, and still we abandon Gore. This would be okay if he were getting catches but he has 0 receptions in the fourth when we are within 7. So in 7 games, our best player gets the ball 2-3 times in a full quarter when we are within one TD.

To be clear, this isn't just about JTO, this is Martz too. I think they're both bad for the team.

We wouldn't know how good we are in the 4th. Martz goes with what we're worst at when we need to be going to our key players. Gore has not sucked, because he has not had the opportunity.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #889 on: October 20, 2008, 10:35:34 AM »
Quote from: DC9er on October 20, 2008, 10:24:15 AM
I'm just saying that what people saw in JTO in the preseason was wishful thinking, that we have no evidence to think he'll turn it around, he hung his head and sat alone and just about pouted when things were going bad.

And of course, hanging one's head is the kiss of death for people like Smith, but signs of JT's fire?  I'm confused about all the JTO people.  They seem to either be admitting they were wrong about him, or we were right and Alex Smith was GASP!  normal.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #890 on: October 20, 2008, 10:36:53 AM »
I think part of JTO's problem maybe that teams have already figured out some of his tendencies and diagnosed how he makes his reads.  In JTO's own words, the ball goes to certain spot on a given play against a given defense.  Thats a pretty clear weakness in the Martz "throw here everytime without question offense" because if the opposing defense knows which keys JTO reads pre-snap to analyze coverages, than they can better disguise their coverage and force bad throws.  

For example, maybe they've figured out that JTO watches the SS alot to determine the coverage, so they have the SS sneak a few steps towards the line of scrimmage pre-snap so that JTO reads Man-to-Man or Blitz when the safeties really have deep zone responsibilities.  JTO reads Man coverage and determines the deep-in route will be open if he hits the hole the SS vacates, so that's where he decides to go with the ball.  Instead, the SS drops back into zone and JTO hits him perfectly in the chest for the easy INT.

QB's like Peyton Manning get alot of their advantages from being difficult to read (hence all that nonsense at the line of scrimmage).  Guys like Derek Anderson set the world on fire until defenses analyze their tendencies, then suddenly look very pedestrian.  Maybe JTO simply needs to develop better habits at the line and learn to make different reads.  That stuff could all come with time.

Look guys, its blatantly obvious to me that JTO fixates on deep-in and deep-slant patterns when we're trailing and its late in the game.  I don't know how many times he threw deep yesterday when the someone underneath was open.  Its the exact same thing I've been b*tching about since the NO game (though I faulted Martz more early on) and if I can see it from my couch just watching the game live, than you can bet NFL DC's can spot it in the film room on Wednesday.

JTO's problem, imo, is that he's failed to continue to grow and adapt his game the past 3 weeks.  Maybe he's peaked and has no more room to grow, or maybe its simply too hard to change a lifetime of habits only 7 weeks into the season and he will get better- who knows at this point?  The only thing that's certain is that either he figures this thing out or we pick in the top 5 next year.  Alex Smith has no say in the matter.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #891 on: October 20, 2008, 11:29:21 AM »
Stlou:
no doubt the OL play was pitiful. Just abysmally bad. I'm amazed we were even in the game with the dead running game we had.  A couple of good pass plays, 2 or 3 key stops on D, and a ST TD kept us in a game, I expected us to lose by 20.

I'll have to watch the INT again. That INT looks eerily similar to the one last week where Bruce didn't run the "hot" route. I'll check the tape again.

KS:
Good points. Teams have film on QBs and watch it all day....when there is film. There is plenty of the Lions last year to know where the ball goes against certain defenses, etc.

DC:
Martz has improved every offense he's been a part of. And the team's offense gets worse when he leaves. Redskins, Rams, and Lions. It is beyond question that his teams usually score plenty of points, so it can't be said that the offense doesn't work. Our star RB leads the NFL in total yardage (or did before this week), so it can't be said he isn't using Gore. Our offense leads the NFL in plays of 20+ yards. Unfortunately, the other side of that coin is that our offense leads the NFL in sacks and TO's. Many of the sacks and TO's are the QB's fault--not running, throwing the ball away, stupid passes, etc.

JT creates many of the offenses problems. Every team's QB accounts for the vast majority of the team's TO's. That's what happens when you touch the ball on every play. JT has to learn when NOT to throw--when to hit the checkdown, when to run, and he just doesn't have it yet (if ever). I agree with KS on that point--he's looking deep too often.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #892 on: October 20, 2008, 12:15:58 PM »
J, I hate to say it, but Martz hasn't improved us enough to make sense. in 2006 (2007 was just a black hole) we scored 18 points a game, we're up to 22, just a little more than a field goals worth of scoring.

We allow 28 ppg and in 2006 we allowed 25. The total difference in scoring is 1 point.

Martz has a more talented team than Norv did, Martz has a "higher scoring offense" the defense is essentially identical. The D has been in every game. They haven't been great, but not much worse than they have been, they haven't regressed much. If you take away the turnovers (generated by the QB, and the predictable and rigid system) the D might be looked at a little differently.

In the 4th quarter, gore gets an average of 2-3 touches. I don't care if he's leading the league in field goals, rushing, passing, and tackles, when we're losing in the fourth, we get away from Gore, even in the passing game. This is a mistake. This is Martz. He has made us a little more dynamic, at the cost of winning.  But he has not improved us enough.

Martz has made the team worse with his decision making (making JTO the starter, not using Gore in the fourth, letting gore average 17 rushes a game) and we now get to see what every other team (minus the superbowl Rams) got so frustrated with.


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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #893 on: October 20, 2008, 12:18:37 PM »
 Here’s a problem for JTO: He does have a swagger and he’s smart and he can throw two or three passes better than a lot of NFL QBs can (quick slant, 14-yard out), but he’s not actually very good.

And once defenses start realizing that if they fake one thing, JTO automatically does the same thing in reaction, every time, he’s dead. OOPS: Defenses have already realized that, and the turnovers are coming in by cascade.

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/nfl/2008/10/19/bench-jto-for-who-fire-nolan-yes-dumb-timeouts-before-fgs-answering-your-comments-commenting-on-your-answers/

Even Kawakami & I are on the same page - there must be snowflakes in Hell about now.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #894 on: October 20, 2008, 02:13:11 PM »
DC,

I was one of Smith's biggest proponents in the preseason.  I thought the kid got a raw deal with all the offense changes and then his injuries.  I had numerous reasons why after 3 seasons, fans should really look at the situation a little closer and open up their minds to the fact every question doesn't necessarily have a clear answer.  You were angry, and rightfully so, that some fans had decided Smith was a bust and a never was.  Well, you are doing the exact same thing with JT right now.

Look, he played a very poor game yesterday, and has turned the ball over a great deal the past few weeks, but how in the world can you decide if someone has it or doesn't based on 7 games, especially when you argued so many times about people not giving Smith a chance?

It seems to me you have an agenda here, and it is to discredit the guy who replaced Smith no matter what the circumstance.  That makes you no better than the fans who were arguing against Smith earlier in the year.

I supported Smith, and now I'm supporting JT.  Why? Because he's the QB of my team right now.  He is having some serious problems at times, but he's also put up better numbers and moved the offense more than anyone we've had since Garcia.  You have to look at both sides of the ledger when forming opinions on somebody.

This is also true when you talk about Martz's system.  It's not perfect, and yes he probably doesn't run Gore as much as he should all the time, but this is easily the most potent offense we've had in the Nolan era, and is the primary reason we were in position to win in most weeks.  The defense has been awful for most of the season, yesterday being an exception, thanks mainly to Nate Clements throwing a blanket over Burress, and is easily the most responsible for most of our losses.

You keep harping on how Gore should be running the ball in the 4th quarter, but just like last week when Philly was keying on him late in the game, the Giants did the same yesterday, and when you can't run the ball, you're going to run into problems.  You can't just sit here and say Martz should do this or Martz should do that, when the defense isn't allowing it.  The job of the OC is to come up with an alternate plan to punish a defense for playing 8 or 9 men in the box, and that is what Martz has done for the most part.  JT and his receivers are not proficient enough to pull this off without mistakes obviously, but to expect this offense to be a fine tuned machine right now when most of the players are still getting comfortable with all the reads they have to make on every play, and the Oline playing so inconsistently, is a pipedream.

For the record, I was not on the Martz bandwagon when he was hired.  I wanted them to hire Cam Cameron to reunite Smith with Norv's offense, but the fact is Martz is here, the offense has improved dramatically from last year, and there is no way in hell I want to see a 5th OC and offensive system brought in next year.  We cannot continue doing this and expect to compete.

KS,

I hope it's not the case, but if other teams have figured something out about JT, then he's going to have to change his ways in a hurry.
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #895 on: October 20, 2008, 05:19:50 PM »
Now that Mike S. has been promoted I wonder if he sits JTO down this week?
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #896 on: October 20, 2008, 05:34:52 PM »
The difference between Smith proponents and JTO proponents is this. JTO shows the exact same trends over these seven games, over the preseason, and over training camp. He turns the ball over. He is not a rookie, he has in fact, been in the league longer than Smith. It's not as if he didn't play games before this season, he just didn't play them in the NFL. He was GREAT in NFL europe if I remember. He's not been sitting on his duff his whole career. JTO is on track to commit a number of turnovers unseen in the modern 49ers. He is abjectly horrible in the 4th quarter, and he's losing the "fire" that was so important to so many people. As it has been said before, this offense is going to produce more yards than those in earlier season in the Nolan regime, so that argument doesn't hold water. Of course the guy gets yards, it's Mike Martz. We never saw Smith in a full game in this system. He never got the chance to learn it, but I guarantee this, we wouldn't be worse than 2-5 with Smith. We would at least be 2-5. This is the basis of my anger, JTO has made no progress since the preseason. We have never seen another JTO. The 300 yard game is GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS SYSTEM. When he does it again, call me. We have seen games where Smith did things, (bringing his team back against Seattle) and while JTO gets worse as the game goes on, Smiths highest ratings come in the 3rd quarter. I have no agenda, I just feel like I (and a few others) saw this JTO in the preseason, and we expected this, and didn't feel like it was that hard to see. We were told that Martz knew what he was doing, and that JTO had "it". There was no real evidence to back these assertions about JTO, but people jumped on the bandwagon anyway, dumping Smith like a bad habit, a guy coming off an injury, a guy who lead a BAD team to a 7-9 record in his Second Season.

JTO after hopping around the league, after having had the benefit of the Martz system for two years, a benefit smith never had, not even in his 7-9 season, is still getting the benefit. He's on track to embarrass this team in ways we never imagined, and it's hard to swallow. 15 turnovers in 7 games. By a veteren. With decent Wideouts. With a probowl runner. 22 ppg, 4 more than Smith in 2006, his second season, when he had a MUCH worse team. My only agenda is the 49ers winning, and I feel what I felt in the preseason, Martz is an arrogant old control freak with more ego than judgment. That JTO is his boy, and that he knew what he was going to do early on. That he had no real intention of allowing Smith to learn.  It was all a farce. It's only becoming moreso as the turnovers pile up, as the losses pile up, as the things that JTO does well fade away, and we slowly sink to the bottom once again. Because we switch one problem for another, not learning how to fix, but spin, not patiently developing, but trying to buy a new system, cut losses that that weren't really losses. JTO is in because JTO knows Martz system, and Martz worships his system.

I'm not harping on gore running the ball half as much as I am him getting the ball more than 3 times in the 4th quarter when we are behind. Martz thinks he and JTO and his "system" can win the game, and nearly halfway through the season, he's been wrong more often than not. I have no agenda, I'm just tired of being bitter and skeptical and right.  That's all the niners have done. I said JTO was going to set a record for INTs. I bet he does.

At least Nolan is gone. Can I buy anyone a drink? Especially those who think I'm a pain in the ass. This is celebration time!   Wink
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 05:52:01 PM by DC9er » Logged
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #897 on: October 20, 2008, 06:09:34 PM »
DC:

Quote
J, I hate to say it, but Martz hasn't improved us enough to make sense. in 2006 (2007 was just a black hole) we scored 18 points a game, we're up to 22, just a little more than a field goals worth of scoring.

You should reexamine our scores from 2006 and 2007. 4 points or less was the difference (win/loss) in 8 games over that span. Still not enough to "make sense"?

Quote
This is Martz. He has made us a little more dynamic, at the cost of winning.

I guess I missed all the winning we've done over the last 3 years. Was I in the john?

You're making massive assumptions that a "safer" offense would score as many or more points AND make the defense better b/c of fewer turnovers. While you're at it, why not assume it would conjure up a pass rush and a starting-calibre QB?
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #898 on: October 20, 2008, 06:49:10 PM »
Why is J.T. O'Sullivan still taking meaningful snaps in San Francisco?

Mike Sando: He was the quarterback by default this season, in my view. Alex Smith and Shaun Hill failed to win the job. O'Sullivan was better during the preseason.

My thought entering 2008 was that the organization needed to emerge from this season feeling good about the quarterback position. That cannot happen with Jamie Martin taking snaps. Perhaps it can happen with Hill getting a shot. I'm skeptical about any of these quarterbacks becoming "The Man" in San Francisco.

I might be inclined to give O'Sullivan one more shot, at home against the Seahawks. If he plays well, perhaps the team can build on it coming out of the bye. If he bombs, then you have two weeks to get the next guy ready.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nfcwest/0-4-223/Mailbag--Tough-times-for-Seahawks--49ers.html
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Re: John Thomas O'Sullivan
« Reply #899 on: October 20, 2008, 06:51:48 PM »
um... those 4 points won the game for us. We're still losing, and scoring more. We might not make it to 7 wins. If that is the case, I don't care if we average 45 points a game, if we turn it over 3 times every game and lose, no, it's not enough.

Um, I didn't say we won over the past three years, but we're not winning now, with an improved team. We are SUPPOSED to be better this year and we aren't. We've traded one problem for another. This offense has not been that much better, and yes, it would make the defense better with less turn overs.

I won't assume those things, because that would be stupid. It's not stupid to EXPECT more than 4 more points a game from Martz. We're comparing him to Norv "Vanilla" Turner here.
And I think we have a pass rush that we haven't used. Getting rid of Nolan will go a long way toward that.

There is no argument that proves that Martz has made us significantly better than the past three season. It's just not true, and the point has been made without any argument that JTO is not executing well in this offense. 22 points per game. That's not doing it.

I make only one assumption, that we wouldn't regress with the improvements made in terms of WR if Turner and Smith were still here. Or even if Smith got a chance in this offense. It's as valid as any thin hopes that JTO will "wake up" so I don't see a problem.



JTO will not start again after this season in this league.
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